MAY 14, 2018

Episode 16 – Tackling the Big Questions

Raj Patel from The University of Texas at Austin

On this episode, we sit down with Raj Patel, a British born American academic, journalist and award-winning writer of books including his most recent book, co-authored with Jason W. Moore, A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things: A Guide to Capitalism, Nature, and the Future of the Planet. He is also a research professor in the LBJ School of Public Affairs at The University of Texas at Austin and a senior research associate at the Unit for the Humanities at Rhodes University. His impressive career also includes a fierce passion for activism, which is where we begin today’s conversation. Join us as we dive into what it really means to devote your life to advocating for a better tomorrow.

Lisa Graham (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of Change The Rules. I’m Lisa Graham Co-Founder at Notley and sitting with me is my fellow Co-Founder Dan Graham. And today we have Raj Patel in the studio with us. Raj is a British-born American academic journalist and award-winning writer of books, including his most recent book, which he co-authored with Jason W. Moore, A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things, a guide to capitalism, nature, and the future of the planet. He is also a research professor at the LBJ School of Public Affairs at UT at Austin and a Senior Research Associate at the unit for the Humanities at Rhodes University. He’s authored six books, countless articles, and reports, and he co-hosts the podcast “The Secret Ingredient” with Tom Philpott and Rebecca McInroy. Welcome, Raj.
Lisa Graham (00:43):
The first thing I wanted to ask you about was you have researched many of the world’s biggest problems, so food systems, sustainability, and poverty. What draws you to these complex issues? Is it the complexity?
Raj Patel (01:05):
Thanks for the question, Lisa. It’s for me, it’s the urgency. Look, I mean, I got into this world when I was five and I was in India with my parents, the land of my ancestors, and we’re stuck at a traffic light in a taxi heading to the airport. And it’s a monsoon and the rain is battering down on the roof of this old Morris 1000 taxi. And outside is a girl, she couldn’t have been older than 12, and she had this infant in her arms and she was keening against the window. And she was sort of just repeating this hymn of ‘look, we are poor, we are hungry, do you have any money?’ And the kids screaming and screaming and screaming. And I lost my shit. I started screaming and screaming, screaming. And my parents cranked down the window and pass through a little sort of wad of rupees. And then we sped off into the night.
Raj Patel (02:00):
But I couldn’t get that girl out of my head. And I went back to school and I started renting out my kindergarten toys to send money back for famine relief. And that feeling. That feeling of that girl. And that’s not fair. You know, I mean, we have young children, we hear, that’s not fair, quite a lot in our lives. But that’s something we all feel. And for me, I sort of set on this road just because that’s not fair. And I’m still trying to figure out a good answer to why is that allowed? Why is that? Okay, so that’s how I got into what feels like big questions is because what other questions are there?
Lisa Graham (02:40):
Yeah. With all the projects that you have going on, what have you been working on most recently? What is your big project right now that you’re working on?
Raj Patel (02:48):
Oh, I’m excited to be hopefully coming to the end of an eight year project now. I’ve been working with a director called Steve James. He’s done incredible documentaries, like Hoop Dreams and The Interruptors, and most recently Abacus, which was the Oscar nominated film. And now we’re coming to the end of, as I say, eight years of filming around the world, but particularly in Malawi. Watching how a community ends hunger in one of the poorest parts of the world. And it does it by growing food in a different way. And then by getting men to be less sexist. And that’s a tall order everywhere, but they manage it in Malawi. You have to, I mean, it takes four or five years, but that’s not bad. Four or five years to get people to be equals in the home.
Raj Patel (03:36):
And then they’ve got this amazing system. There’s enough food to eat. The men are doing their fair share. But the rains don’t come. And so the activists we talked to there and we’ve been filming for ages said, look, we understand climate change. We understand you’re from America and that people in America aren’t taking this terribly seriously. Can we come to America to persuade Americans that climate change is a thing? And so last year we put the thing on our credit cards to bring them over so that they could engage in these conversations everywhere from the White House to the Midwest to Indigenous People’s Country in the border of Canada and the United States. And we learned a lot. And we’re really excited to share the arc of that journey, an eight year journey, with folk by the end of the year, we hope.
Lisa Graham (04:27):
And so in telling the story, was there a way you guys had to, or I guess the people involved, how did they craft that story to get this message across and to have people take it seriously?
Raj Patel (04:43):
So, how do folk in Malawi persuade men to be less sexist or?
Lisa Graham (04:48):
Yeah, well, when actually coming over to talk about climate change. You know we are a country where some people don’t believe it exists. Some people do. Some people believe they have different causes. How did they craft their message to bring that over here?
Raj Patel (05:01):
Interesting. I mean, this was what I learned from this approach. Clearly coming in saying, “Are you idiots? Have you not seen the data?” That tends to work very badly. But instead, the first thing they did was listen. And they were hearing why it is that people thought that this wasn’t climate change, it was more like a cycle. And where did you learn that? The pastor suggested that we have these cycles. And then I heard it from my friend and I heard it from my other friend. And what they essentially did was say, look, we should have the theological discussion before we have the discussion about climate data. But we should also sort out some terms like, let’s separate the difference between weather and climate.
Raj Patel (05:44):
These are two different things. Let’s see if we can agree on those basic ideas. Oh, we can agree on those. Okay. Now let’s think about how it is that we relate to the rest of creation. You know, what does the Bible tell us about the end times? What are our relationships to one another? If we believe it’s the end time, should we be behaving the way that we are or not? I am thoroughly ill-equipped to engage in that kind of a conversation. But to kick-ass pharma nurses from Northern Malawi who grew up in the Scottish Presbyterian Church who can preach literally Chapter and Verse to folk who may not be able to engage with the climate science literature, but who could certainly have opinions and views about the way that we should behave to one another. And it was through these conversations around climate change and faith that it felt like we were able to actually have a conversation that I’ve never seen before.
Dan Graham (06:34):
To back up just briefly, what is the relationship or why is the conversation around faith and the end times important to the debate or the discussion around climate change in whether it’s actually impacting communities around the world?
Raj Patel (06:49):
If you believe that these are the end times, then your motivation to do anything about anything drops away fairly precipitously. I mean, if you think that in fact, what we’re waiting for is for certain people to march into Jerusalem. Or you’re waiting for the resurrection or the rapture. Then your concern about reducing carbon emissions kind of takes a backseat to that.
Dan Graham (07:08):
Right. Because you’re talking about five years left as opposed to 20 or 40.
Lisa Graham (07:13):
Or hundreds.
Dan Graham (07:14):
Or hundreds.
Raj Patel (07:15):
And depending on what that answer is, your perspective on the future, your discount rate, if you want to sort of wax economics, is going to be very different. But if you believe that, nonetheless, even if it’s going to happen tomorrow, you have duties today that are actually legible in the Bible. Then you can start having a very interesting discussion. It’s like, even if you believe that the world is going to end tomorrow, that shouldn’t stop you behaving in ways that are consonant with being in harmony with creation today.
Dan Graham (07:46):
So is that a big counter-argument that exists in the United States toward those who are concerned about climate change?
Raj Patel (07:51):
Tthat’s certainly one we heard coming from people in Malawi. Because the folk in Malawi were saying, look, we believe in the end times as well, but right now we’re living through something that’s definitely not divine. And we have explanations for why it is that we’re living the way that we are. And it has everything to do with poverty, with carbon dioxide emissions from here in the United States, from policies that start here in the United States that prevent us from being able to eat properly. And there’s none of the hand of God behind that as far as we can tell. And so then the discussion gets into a really interesting place around what our responsibilities are here in the United States, given how much trouble we’ve caused the rest of the Earth.
Lisa Graham (08:35):
You talked too about this huge cultural shift in Malawi to get to that point to get the men more equally involved to make it a less sexist society in five years. How did that happen? What was the process there? And is that replicable?
Raj Patel (08:51):
It’s incredible how fast it is, right? And the key of this is that everyone has to be a scientist. And everyone must feel that they can be a scientist. And this is a real shift in the way that development thinking has been espoused in the past. You know, in times past, there used to be the great white man from Washington DC, or Harvard or wherever Jeffrey Sachs is now. And he would come to the benighted and say, this is how your policy must be. And here’s how structural adjustment is going to make you all better off. And here are economists. And here’s the hotel they’ll stay in. And here’s their podium. And, you know, here’s this sort of constellation of money around these big brains. And the task of the government in whatever country this was deployed in was to just do whatever the expert said.
Raj Patel (09:35):
But there was never any understanding that folk on the ground could be experts or could even, not just experts as in witnessing their own poverty, but actually being able to do something about it. And so the project that we’ve been filming for a while was started up by a graduate student at Cornell University called Rachel Bezner Kerr and her colleague in Malawi, Esther Lupafya, and together, essentially, they were seeing the horrors of Malawi in the late 1990s, early 2000s where the HIV AIDS epidemic was sort of sloughing through the population. More than half the children were malnourished. People were living on less than 50 cents a person a day. And there wasn’t any money for investing in agricultural research or anything like that. And so in the end, they found a little bit of money, managed to get a variety of different seeds, and turned the farmers into research teams.
Raj Patel (10:29):
And so the farmers go out and they start experimenting with intercropping where you grow corn, which is the staple crop in Malawi. And then you’d grow that next to beans, which is great for the soil. Because in that part of the world, nitrogen deficiencies in the soil are a problem. And beans fix nitrogen; they’re legumes so they’re good for the soil. And then they’re growing squash, because you get squash and the squash leaves are big and fat, and so they shade out the weeds and you get squash flowers that attract beneficial insects. You got this really rich agricultural system. It’s also in Central America. And the scientist farmers discovered this is amazing, but they also see that that malnutrition isn’t going down as fast as they like. So then they become not just agronomist scientists, but they become social scientists.
Raj Patel (11:13):
And they say, well, okay, we need to do a survey. We need to ask people, ‘all right, well, so what’s up, how are you doing? How are you staying at home? How do you live?’ And what they find is that domestic violence is through the roof. And that domestic violence is one of the reasons why not everyone in the household gets to eat. And so they then begin a next sort of iteration of being a scientist, where they say, ‘all right, well, what we’re going to do is get men to be equal to women, and so we’re going to do this by going door-to-door and teaching men how to cook.’ And there’s this sort of door-to-door. There’s like a chef and someone from the research team. And they come over to the man of the house, they say ‘Man of the house, come out. You’ve seen your wife hunched over this. This is a pot. It’s very exciting. And here’s how you use it.’.
Raj Patel (12:02):
And then there’s a class but it’s like the Food Network. It’s just a sort of day of entertainment. You don’t watch the Food Network to end patriarchy. And it didn’t work either with this sort of door-to-door thing. So then they iterated their experiment. And they turned it into a game. And they turned it into a collective kind of experiment. A hundred people, men, women, and children compete to have the best recipes. And in this space, women and men can teach one another and call each other out. And men get called out on our sexism. And the inequalities between mothers in-law and daughters in-law gets called out. And there’s this amazing space of a game becomes a zone of social equality.
Raj Patel (12:40):
And then you have to follow it up with door-to-door feminist organizing with small changes every day for five years. But after five years, we have it on film. We see that even the most recalcitrant kind of patriarch of the village becoming less of an ass. And helping with the kids and sitting on the ground next to his wife shelling peas. And you never see that in other parts of Northern Malawi. But in the villages where this happens, it sort of spreads and it becomes normal after awhile. So it’s a mixture, right? It’s experiments that sometimes work. And sometimes don’t. It’s a social process rather than individual sort of therapeutic one. But it’s also day-to-day, hard organizing, small changes, every day, for five years. And you can make anything happen.
Dan Graham (13:23):
So the inability for the entire family to eat as a result of domestic violence, is that because someone in the household is too injured to contribute?
Raj Patel (13:32):
I mean, it’s a range of things. I mean, partly, if the husband comes home and is angry about being unable to find work or being frustrated, or whatever it is, and he engages in active domestic violence, then his wife is more likely to skip a meal or just avoid. You know, eat after he has eaten and then feed the kids after that, or feed the kids first and then eat herself. And so all of a sudden you have this sort of weird hierarchy condition by violence and the fear of violence that means that almost everyone in the family suffers. And the household as a unit suffers as well. So these sort of complex dynamics of actual violence and threatened violence set up these sort of horrible cycles of people skipping meals in order to avoid the kinds of behavior that they’re scared that the patriarch will commit.
Dan Graham (14:22):
That’s really interesting that a focus on food has led to sort of this revolution around gender roles and domestic violence.
Raj Patel (14:30):
I kind of struggle for the metaphor of this. It’s sort of like a runaway jury, but with scientists, right? They’re like, ‘Hey, we just solved the soil problem here. We can do it. We can do it.’ We have a structure that involves peer review and presenting our results and sharing things and not being afraid of things have gone wrong. And we confess that. And we can share it and we can support one another. And so from that, they moved to domestic violence. But they also moved to things like setting up credit groups so that everyone can save their money together so that they can take out a loan and buy equipment or tackle climate change or buy the corn so that you don’t have to sell to the government, but you can have your own grain store that you manage yourself. As soon as people feel empowered to be like, ‘Hey, I can do this,’ you will be surprised what they can do.
Lisa Graham (15:20):
That’s incredible. Can we talk a little bit about your most recent book, A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things? I was reading through the introduction, and could you tell us what the seven cheap things are? And then kind of the main thesis behind your message of the book?
Raj Patel (15:34):
Okay. So the seven cheap things are nature, work, care, food, energy, work, and lives. And the idea here is that capitalism is a very strange system that’s, what, 600 years old. And it’s based on essentially avoiding paying your bills. If you can dodge paying for nature, or if you pay your workers a little less, or if you can not have to pay when your workers are sick or pay for new workers, or if you can avoid having to pay your workers a lot of money so that they have to eat, and if you can replace your workers with mechanical means that can be given energy cheaply. And if you can make sure all of that is policed with costs that you never have to bear, all of a sudden, you get to have a system that runs and seems to generate a great deal of wealth for a few people.
Raj Patel (16:39):
And the thesis in the book is that we are living through, essentially the same kinds of things that Columbus did. But here in the 21st century, we have our modern Columbus’s — people like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk — people who are on the basis of not stellar performance in terms of generating huge amounts of profit, they’re persuading bankers to be able to give them money so that they can go colonize somewhere else. In Musk’s case, it’s Mars. In Bezos’ case, it’s the Moon. And the idea here is that they get to where they get by having underpaid workers and by skimping on things like care work. I have the story of the chicken nugget as this sort of capitalist artifact.
Raj Patel (17:30):
Through the book, we tell a number of stories about the ways that capitalism depends on these seven things. And the work that the word “cheap” does is point out that all of these things are running out. And that we’re heading towards a state shift in the way that our ecosystem works. That just in the same way as capitalism was born of a time of climate change and disease, whatever comes after capitalism will be born in an equal kind of maelstrom of transformation. And it’s probably worth thinking about what that next thing will be now, rather than surrendering to the most powerful actors who are on the stage in the middle of that next crisis.
Dan Graham (18:11):
You mentioned that a lot of your life’s works sort of use the story of you as a child and in this car and seeing this woman who was asking for money with her own child as sort of this burning unfairness that you sense that propelled you forward in the direction that you’ve gone. Are there things today that sort of inspire kind of that same renewal of burning unfairness? What are the big things that you see today that you’re most concerned about in terms of the future of humanity? And I’m guessing from the global perspective that you have that you see a lot of flavors of those things around the world.
Raj Patel (18:50):
I mean, we don’t have to go far. I mean, we’re here in Austin and to flip from West to East side is already to be reminded of a certain kind of history. And to be experiencing the history of a city that was forcibly segregated and which continues to sort of live that legacy. I don’t want to pick my favorite inequality. So, I mean, there isn’t one. Whether it’s along axis of gender or race or of class or of history, it’s all pretty crappy. When I get to go to Malawi and see how some of the folk that we were traveling with live day-to-day, it’s to be reminded of the immense privilege of being born in a society that was founded on wealth extracted from other parts of the world.
Raj Patel (19:41):
And, in a sense, I lived that contradiction. My parents were imperial subjects of her majesty, the Queen. My mother was born in Kenya. My father was born in Fiji. And they were sent there by sort of these colonial trails. And now here I am in the United States, another sort of settler colony. And living with those kinds of contradictions, it’s not much fun, but it’s better than not living with them. And it’s better than pretending they’re not there. And it seems to me that actually, inspired by some of the work that I see in Malawi and land occupations in Brazil or wherever it is, it’s also important just to remain hopeful. I think despair is a certain flavor that you see in the media at the moment.
Raj Patel (20:28):
And people are like, ‘Oh my goodness, we’re going to hell in a hand basket.’ But if you’re confronting a lot of these inequalities, despair is a luxury you can’t afford. Despair is for the rich. And I think that a lot of the resistance and fighting back that you see, not just in terms of protests but in terms of imagining a different world. That stuff I see in Malawi and see it in the transformations of the way people are eating and eating much better now. And I take heart from that.
Dan Graham (21:01):
Do you see any movements now that bring you great optimism? We’re starting to do some testing around the world of things like universal basic income. Or as we become a more globalized world, do you see some things coming down that you feel like are inevitable optimistic outcomes that we’re progressing toward, or do you view every front as an ongoing battle that we must diligently kind of be manning? Or are there some things that you feel like are going to work themselves out as we enter a potential era of abundance?
Raj Patel (21:34):
I’m a little skeptical about the era of abundance. Just because we’ve been sold that for so long. Ever since the atomic powered car. And there’s always been someone whose gotten the short end of the stick. But what I like rather than think about basic income as a policy that everyone should emulate, I think that there are actually lots of really interesting things to talk about there. Much more interesting to me is the process. If you get to basic income just by having it drop from the sky, it’s not as good as having fought for it. And the reason for that is that in the fighting and in the coalition-building, you learn how to do politics. That’s what’s so good about the story about the Malawian scientists. You don’t get to tackle climate change or gender inequality just because someone comes along and reads you the manual, right?
Raj Patel (22:30):
Or some humanitarian comes and says ‘You should be more gender equal!” Yes, yes, we should do that. But if you get to it by becoming a scientist yourself and being part of this process of collective peer review, you get to earn it, and it stays. Rather than just having a seminar done and then buggering off. So I like the idea that more and more people are becoming scientists through ideas like agroecology. And there’s the big UN summit happening on agroecology as we speak and I’m really excited by that. It’s an alternative to industrial agriculture. Industrial agriculture is agriculture where you take this abundant field, and you nuke it, and then you plant the seeds that you want, and then you replace all the ecosystemic services like pollination or the equilibrium that comes from having a robust ecosystem and you replace those with chemicals.
Raj Patel (23:23):
And the trouble is that those chemicals need to be renewed every generation because things develop resistance to them. So rather than fight a war that you will never win, agroecology is about adapting and figuring out what it is that you can survive a loss to pests and figure out how it is that you balance things that you need to things that are good for the insects. Things that are good for forage crops because it can be good for medicine. Things that are good for the soil. And once you get that equilibrium, that process of experimenting to get there it seems to me magical. To be able to become an empowered scientist is really different from being the farmer who follows the instructions on the chemistry industries packets. It’s that kind of movement around agroecology or anything else where people are much more in charge of their lives and much less beholden to these sort of large industrial concerns that I get a great deal of hope from. The good news is that that’s happening everywhere.
Lisa Graham (24:22):
Do you find that with a lot of these movements there’s a lot of resistance to the change, to doing something different, to trying something new?
Raj Patel (24:30):
Yes and no. I wrote a book called Stuffed and Starved in 2008. And when I was researching, that was like a good five years of research, and even then when I was researching it, most of the farmers in the small farmer movements that I was working with were like, ‘Oh yeah, climate change. That’s going to kick someone on the ass some day.’ But when I go back now, just 15 years later fromwhen I was doing the original research, almost everyone’s into it. And they’re into it, not because they’re particularly fans of new ideas for the sake of it, but they’ve seen it work and they’ve seen what the consequences of climate change have been. Increasingly, small farmers are really at the sharp end of those transformations. And there’s nothing like looking over at that farmer, who’s also suffered devastating floods or insects at the wrong time or whatever it is, and seeing that yes, half of those crops are gone. But her other half of the crops, which were resistant, and were much more biodiverse are doing just fine. Whereas your monoculture of the single crop that was engineered to survive precise conditions now doesn’t survive at all.
Lisa Graham (25:40):
Yeah. With many of your projects, years long research, getting it to fruition, getting it published, or getting it made, how do you decide what you’re going to focus on for the next chapter?
Raj Patel (25:52):
Really it’s listening to what movements are asking for. This is the hard part of doing activist scholarship. How do you hold yourself accountable? I’m free to write what I like. But how do I make sure that I’m getting it right? And that it serves a purpose that’s deeper. And for that, you have to just go and spend time with movements around the world and see what it is that they’re up against. And a lot of them these days are up against fascism. Whether in India or in rural America or wherever it is, I mean, there’s a certain kind of populism that’s afoot and many movements that I’m connected to are deeply concerned about what that means. And that’s sort of shaping what it is that the next project has to be.
Lisa Graham (26:49):
Does that make it hard to suss out accurate information? Getting people to talk honestly. Figuring out what’s really going on in these areas where I can’t imagine the array of people you have to talk to to really figure out what’s happening and what the base issues are. If you can start solving problems just by empowerment. I mean, it didn’t start out as let’s empower people to farm so we can solve domestic violence and therefore these other things. But all these problems are so complex. How do you get to, this is what we need to focus on after speaking with so many people and getting the truth?
Raj Patel (27:25):
In the end, it’s what it is that gets reported. I always ask the question, all right, well, so what should I do? What is it that’s going to be very helpful here? And often it’s about being the sort of Johnny Appleseed of these stories. Of taking the stories and taking what works, and exchanging them. Because I’m in that position of vast privilege where I can hop from one country to another and, with an interpreter, manage to speak to anyone who’s around and ready to talk. But in terms of how do you get at the truth? I think just spending a lot of time building trust. And that means going back again and again, and iterating, and getting it wrong, and then iterating, and getting it right. And I think that scientific process that the farmers in Malawi learned is what works everywhere. Iterate and iterate and iterate and share your findings. And then have them critiqued and iterate again.
Dan Graham (28:15):
I’m curious, how do you hold yourself accountable? How do you measure the outcomes of your work? When you kind of look at these problems and you decide to take something on as a project or a book, how do you know if what you’ve decided to spend your time on is actually producing the results that you want?
Raj Patel (28:32):
The short answer for that is going back and asking the people that I showed it to. And saying, was this fair? Have you found it useful in your work? That’s sort of the measure of it really. I’m pleased that the Stuffed and Starved book has been translated all over the place and gets taught in the ways that it was designed to. And the struggle I’m having right now. I’m seven years into writing a book that I’m trying to figure out the best way of packaging it, given what I’ve been hearing from people on the ground. I’ve written it three times and it’s not good enough. And so the way I’ve held myself to account is by throwing it away and starting again.
Raj Patel (29:14):
But you know, in the same way, we’re developing this new process, based on that really deep question of accountability, where with documentaries, it’s the rare person who will sit down and watch two and three quarter hour documentaries. I mean, Hoop Dreams is the exception that most people seem to have at least heard of. But in general, two and three quarter hours of sitting in a theater is not what people do. And so what we’re doing is working with lots of organizations — unions, churches, what have you — to version the documentary and co-create the documentary. So that there’s something that’s ready for them to use in their temples or churches or union halls or wherever it is that people organize. And then we will be holding ourselves to account through metrics that they set up about whether this was useful or not. And it’s storytelling for organizing for change is what we’re working on now. And we’ll see how that works out. But hopefully a couple of years from now, I’ll be able to tell you.
Lisa Graham (30:16):
Do you find that with starting a lot of these projects it’s iterating on that original message, or does that message change?
Raj Patel (30:25):
You know, it definitely changes because times change and what people want changes. So, you know, seven years ago, the rise of the far right wasn’t really on everyone’s radar. I mean, it was on a few people’s radar, particularly in India. Because India has for the longest time been living under a guy with a massive social media presence who sees Islamophobia, who sees radical Islamic terrorism everywhere and wants to give shills to big coal. And Narendra Modi is that guy, right? And so India has seen what the far right is like and what living under the far right is like for awhile. But everyone else seems to be catching up. Unfortunately.
Lisa Graham (31:04):
Interesting. Well, Raj, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really fascinating. Thank you so much. And thank you for all the work that you do.
Raj Patel (31:20):
Are you kidding? Thank you so much for having me.
Lisa Graham (31:23):
And you can find all of Raj’s books on his website, www.rajpatel.org. And we truly encourage each of our listeners to dive into one, if not all of them. The Change The Rules podcast is sponsored by Chez Boom Audio. You can find everything you need about the studio at https://chezboomaudio.com/ and Change The Rules is also on iTunes. And you can find every episode by searching Change The Rules. Thanks again, Raj.